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Berdelaedjes Forom di berdelaedjes e walon, so tot l' minme ké sudjet
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Vey sudjet di dvant :: Vey sudjet shuvant |
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lucyin
Date d' arivêye: 2005-07-07 Messaedjes: 3758 Eplaeçmint: Sidi Smayil, Marok
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Date: dim 10 avr, 2022 8:36:41 Sudjet: Letes des Wisconsinîs waloncåzants |
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Citåcion: |
Hi Lucien,
There are still a few Walloon speakers here in Wisconsin. There are others that would like to learn the language a bit more. I noticed you have a nice collection of Walloon words and phrases on wikimedia.org
Orally like this is pretty much the only way anyone here in Wisconsin can learn this lanuage since we've never seen anything written nor really understand French. It would be great if these recordings had translateable file names / titles to explain to us what is being said.
I see there is a provison on the site for an English caption. Some Walloon's that came to the other side of the ocean would greatly apprecaite this if you can find the time:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wa_apriyesse.oga
Steve Lampereur
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It is a good surprise.
Do you mean I should systematically write the English translation of the recorded word ?
I did it right now for "apriyesse"
In recents uploads, it is always noted:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wa_admete.ogg
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wa_rawton.ogg
If you need more current words, ask it.
Yours sincerely (as they taught us at school ). _________________ Li ci ki n' a k' on toû n' vike k' on djoû.
Candjî pol dierin côp pa lucyin, li lon 06 mås, 2023 12:04:55; candjî 1 feye |
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lucyin
Date d' arivêye: 2005-07-07 Messaedjes: 3758 Eplaeçmint: Sidi Smayil, Marok
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Date: lon 11 avr, 2022 13:34:56 Sudjet: |
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Thank you for the link I did not know.
I downloaded the manuscript of Leonard Lampereur and the study of Eric Collet.
In Wikipedia, I didn't upload audio files regarding the current (or not current) use of the word but somewhat randomly, following opportunity in conversation with native speakers with different accents.
A more usual word : "in the morning" with 5 recordings
https://wa.wiktionary.org/wiki/%C3%A5_mat%C3%A9n
If you like it, it can be "reverted" as an English entry:
https://wa.wiktionary.org/wiki/in_the_morning
Can this help you ? _________________ Li ci ki n' a k' on toû n' vike k' on djoû. |
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lucyin
Date d' arivêye: 2005-07-07 Messaedjes: 3758 Eplaeçmint: Sidi Smayil, Marok
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Date: lon 18 avr, 2022 19:38:03 Sudjet: |
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Citåcion: |
Steve
I sent you a reply from my main email account
Yes and English translation of the recorded word is what is very helpful to us.
If you have more words and phrases already recorded, sure, anything
like that is helpful to us. From my other email I sent you a bunch of
recordings of the speakers here.
Thank you.
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_________________ Li ci ki n' a k' on toû n' vike k' on djoû. |
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lucyin
Date d' arivêye: 2005-07-07 Messaedjes: 3758 Eplaeçmint: Sidi Smayil, Marok
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Date: lon 06 mås, 2023 10:42:26 Sudjet: |
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Citåcion: |
Steve Lampereur
I figured this might be interesting to you.
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(pådje di gazete avou l' lete Vandertie e walon)
Thank you.
The letter has already been "re-written" in Walloon Wikipedia, on Al Vontertie's page:
https://wa.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Vondertie
Have you further informations on him (date and place of birth, of death, job) ?
If you have some time left, I would be interested in a small synthesis on Wisconsin Walloons nowadays, stressing the remnants of Walloon language ("Belgian"). One A4 page in English would be welcomed in our magazine "Li Rantoele"
https://wa.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Rantoele_(gazete)
I would translate it into "Rifondou Walon" (Standard normalized Walloon) as used in Wikipedia.
Thank you in advance. _________________ Li ci ki n' a k' on toû n' vike k' on djoû. |
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lucyin
Date d' arivêye: 2005-07-07 Messaedjes: 3758 Eplaeçmint: Sidi Smayil, Marok
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Date: lon 06 mås, 2023 10:45:16 Sudjet: |
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Alfred John Vandertie 24 April 1910 – 17 January 1998. He was born in Brussels, Door County. He was a 2nd generation Belgian-American with his Vangindertaelen ancestors being from Saint-Jean-Geest. See his attached obituary for more background on him.
We think there are maybe 35 Walloon speakers left, but that may be a bit generous. Obviously at this point most are mid 80's.
However in talking to Mathieu who runs the Li walon po tertos social media page, there are a few younger ones. For example; Mary Chaudoir born in 1964 would be the youngest speaker I can think of.
She spent 3 years in the early 2000's teaching English in Belgium. She's one of my second cousins. We are 3rd gen Belgian Americans. In most cases I'm 4th, but one of my Chaudoir ancestors came later in ~1872. She has two instances where she is the 3rd gen. Her father was president of the Belgian club, so those are the contributing factors.
When Southern Door High School was built to replace Brussels High School in 1960, this was a large contributing factor to families switching to English. My oldest uncle (now deceased) spent all 4 years at Brussels High, and he didn't speak English till high school.
By the time my father was born (13 years later the youngest in the family) Southern Door Was built, and they had to recruit teachers outside of the settlement for the school, thus talking Walloon could no longer be accommodated. And in my families case they started
speaking English at home.
Another contributing factor here to the languages demise has to do with fact that most 3rd gen folks like my father pursuing careers outside of the traditional farming within the settlement. There was a movement in the late 50s to early 60's to build a National Belgian
Village (what Al was writing about), which was to include a retirement facility. This would have brought jobs to the area, however this never materialized mostly because two of the business men and largest pledgers of money died.
Prof. Bill Laatsch did a lot of research on the Belgian American community and its identity which all coincides with retaining the language.
https://doorcountypulse.com/retaining-an-identity/
If there is anything else you'd like to know specifically, feel free to ask.
Steve Lampereur
(ces dnêyes la ont stî rmetowes e walon divins l' Rantoele 105, p. 4) _________________ Li ci ki n' a k' on toû n' vike k' on djoû. |
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lucyin
Date d' arivêye: 2005-07-07 Messaedjes: 3758 Eplaeçmint: Sidi Smayil, Marok
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Date: lon 06 mås, 2023 10:50:02 Sudjet: |
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Lucien, and all
Sorry I didn't do the reply-all on my last email. It was late, and I wasn't paying attention.
As for the language remnants I will ask others for input. Fortunately I have been indexing a lot of content related to Belgian Heritage.
Kelly Biers did touch briefly on remnants in that Community-Driven Language Preservation and the Development of a Wisconsin Walloon
Primer video from last April. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_CP2Nuq8kI
I created a folder to start putting artifacts into that anyone can review now. I'll get back to you all later after I talk to a few people on others personal memories such as words or phases that have survived into the 4th+ American generations.
Thats the sort of thing I personally am interested in, as I know I use a few myself from time to time. But its still kind of hard to write these things in a way that makes sense to people here. Something Kelly Biers is still working on.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1CA-rtteSp9-hk7ruhHfMUkrzk0GHJdR?usp=sharing
Response
Thanks a lot.
I will send you a copy of the next issue of our magazine, with an article on this subject.
Ki ça vos våye bén ! (the best for you ?) _________________ Li ci ki n' a k' on toû n' vike k' on djoû. |
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lucyin
Date d' arivêye: 2005-07-07 Messaedjes: 3758 Eplaeçmint: Sidi Smayil, Marok
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Date: lon 06 mås, 2023 10:57:07 Sudjet: |
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Citåcion: |
Steve Lampereur, li 10 di fevrî 2023
I've made some social media posts. On the Wisconsin Walloon group.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/wisconsinwalloon/
But I have found thats a pretty small subset of people to ask anything. I'm going to ask my older cousins who are involved with the Belgian Heritage Center to solicit the more recent generations for loan words that they still use and sprinkle in with their English. It's one of those things thats best asked in person since trying to convey how spoken words and phrases are pronounced in a written form is a pain. |
It would be great if you could record the words alone (out of sentences and without article). They could then be published in Wikipedia and added to different pronunciations of each page of Walloon Wiktionary. I intend to try that with one or two words from "Lesson 7 days of the week" of Josie Wauthelet (if I get permission from Wiki managers to do that for the reason it is a "too small to be copyrighted" material).
Citåcion: |
Are you asking for a Wisconsin Walloon speaker to speak Al Vandertie's newspaper article?
I think I can get my great aunts daughter to do that.
For what it's worth I'm impressed with the overall linguistic effort in Belgium. And you totally have the right idea pushing for a standard way to write it. |
Wonderfull ! This would be great ! But when you meet her, ask her also to pronounce individual words (the ones more usefull for her). Each word alone, separated by a small silence.
Just now, I have been writing the article for our magazine, largely based on your precedent e-mails. I nearly finished. I will send you a copy + an audio file of it.
Thank you for encouraging our Normalised Orthography project "Rifondou walon". It began in the early 1990's but most of traditional Walloon-language activists did not join it, preferring to keep local transcription of the accents (so-called "Feller-system").
I 'll also send you cropped-in audio material of a reportage of the late Yves Paquet (2002). Harry Chaudoir speaks about the Lempereur family (maybe your's). _________________ Li ci ki n' a k' on toû n' vike k' on djoû. |
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lucyin
Date d' arivêye: 2005-07-07 Messaedjes: 3758 Eplaeçmint: Sidi Smayil, Marok
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Date: lon 06 mås, 2023 11:01:18 Sudjet: |
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Steve Lampereur:
I think I sent you a collection of spoken things before, but maybe not:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders1XRchbQTgVLbjKw4RUNqFDVBX3AXDgBQX?usp=sharing
Specifically see the Glossika Walloon sentences-20211023T054201Z-001 folder.
I'll also have to ask my great aunt's daughter or making any real headway reading written Walloon. Rifondou is more difficult for the Walloon speakers here to understand, and that is why this initiative to create a written version for Wisconsin started. Well, mostly because a lingust showed interest.
I'm not sure if you are aware, previous generations, like that of my mother often studied French in high school and college because of their heritage. This was fairly common, likewise if you're hertiage was German you'd likely study German, etc. Over the last 20+ years the immigration trends here have led to a large influx of Spanish speakers, so now days most people will study that, as there are economic reasons (assset to an employer etc)
Yes if Harry talked about Lempereur then thats my family. I think when Francoise Lempereur first came 40+ years ago to vist, she really make the community here aware of our uniqueness. I think she had a hand in instigating the Belgian American collection with the University/historical society. But maybe everyone is too modest to admit that was a result of her visiting.
In many of these oral interviews, Walloon is spoken if you're looking for more samples to review.
https://www.uwgb.edu/UWGBCMS/media/Archives-and-ARC/files/Belgian-American-Oral-History-Summaries.pdf
I'm my opinion the UW Digital archive is layed out poorly, so I typically use a search engine to find things within the collection.
Ex; "Cletus Bellin interview" which leads to;
https://search.library.wisc.edu/digital/A3ZJAEGTYE4PKP8X
I found that one fairly interesting myself. While there is little Walloon spoken in that partiular interview, he talkes about Walloon music and dancing and how he learned Walloon as well as the Czech language. I think when Francoise Lempereur first came 40+ years ago to vist, she really make the community here aware of our uniqueness.[/quote] _________________ Li ci ki n' a k' on toû n' vike k' on djoû.
Candjî pol dierin côp pa lucyin, li lon 12 fev, 2024 12:58:24; candjî 1 feye |
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lucyin
Date d' arivêye: 2005-07-07 Messaedjes: 3758 Eplaeçmint: Sidi Smayil, Marok
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Date: lon 06 mås, 2023 11:04:43 Sudjet: |
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Thank you for answer. Unfortunately, I am not used to the Google "drive" system. I could not get anything from there. If you have small audio files, can you send them as attachment of the mail ?
Thank you for information about French studies by Walloon-speakers. I understand now some features of Josie Wauthelet 7th lesson. She does not use elision of pronouns before vowels, which is a rule in Walloon (all accents). She says *dji inme (I love, I like) instead of dj'inme /ʤɛ̃m/.
Neither contracted preposition + article: she says "djoûs *di li samwinne" instead of: "djoûs del samwinne" (days of the week), calked from French "de la semaine". Native Wisconsin Walloon speakers I heard in Yves Paquet's CD's or Xavier Istasse's film, who probably did not study French, pronounced in the right Walloon way.
_________________ Li ci ki n' a k' on toû n' vike k' on djoû. |
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lucyin
Date d' arivêye: 2005-07-07 Messaedjes: 3758 Eplaeçmint: Sidi Smayil, Marok
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Date: lon 06 mås, 2023 11:05:55 Sudjet: |
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Citåcion: |
Steve Lamprereur:
Josie was a school teacher as was my great aunt's daughter (Theresa Gerondale Alexander). I know Theresa studied French, I'd assume Josie did too. So there could be some influence there. But I'd like to think their Walloon that they learned first overshadows most of that.
I know Theresa has said a few times how Josie said things is not the same as her. That could be that they lived in different areas of the settlement here. I know Kelly Biers has noticed the Champion end of the settlement differs a bit someones from the Namur end. But that really doesn't sound like anything different that you have going on in Belgium. |
Fine ! I could download all Josie lessons, with the .pdf containing her orthographical system. Very interessant.
Some of the pronunciations (especially the so-called "betchfessî én" (cénk; kénze, vénrdi / five, fifteen, friday) meets the "zero-cnoxheu" pronunciation. This theoretical concept was asked to us for the phonetic transcription in the 4000 words dictionary (you have it in the "drive"); afterwards, it appears in the Walloon Wiktionary in paragraph "prononçaedje" together with other local pronunciations. We can add audio to each of them.
I also notice original metonymies (extension of sense), not present in the Walloon dictionaries, like "gurnî" (attic) for "floor". (vosse tchambe est å cénkinme gurnî / your room i in the fifth floor).
Syntax is often different from the one used in Wallonia. Here, it is driven by English syntax. For example (lesson 2) cwè est vosse nom ? is the literal translation of "what is your name ?" In Wallonia, we would say : vosse no, c' est comint (your name it is how ?) or, the most classical way "kimint vs lome-t on" (how do they call you?)
Nén emilé
Li prononçaedje di "cwè est vosse nom" avou on S po "est" divant cossoune, c' est on mescomprindaedje (riscôpaedje) d' ene fråze ki s' doereut scrire : «cwè est ç', vosse no ?» Cisse-lale sereut ene emantchåjhe coreke et corante. _________________ Li ci ki n' a k' on toû n' vike k' on djoû. |
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lucyin
Date d' arivêye: 2005-07-07 Messaedjes: 3758 Eplaeçmint: Sidi Smayil, Marok
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Date: lon 06 mås, 2023 11:16:56 Sudjet: |
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Steve Lempreur, li 13 di fevrî
Thats fine.
I'm pretty used to those types of translations where there are misplaced modifiers.
I did upload make a public upload of Josephine Wautlet's course since her children were fine with that. I did also create a version where I spliced in the French audio from the
course she modeled her Walloon course after.
She and others like Louis DeJardin would teach a night school course on the language. The class was based on what Wautlet developed and was offered for nearly 30 years,
This was pretty popular for those interested in the exhange trips with the Wallonie-Wisconsin group. As everyone aged and those trips became less frequent, sadly so did
the interest of staying fluent for those who learned it growing up, as well as those who didn't.
https://archive.org/details/phoneticwallonforbelgianamericans
https://archive.org/details/spoken-walloon-french-comparison
This is a pretty good language preservation overview that made the TV news:
https://archive.org/details/PreservingWalloonWisconsinsLostLanguage
While Kelly Biers work has been more open than many other academic studies of the past (where papers were typically behind a paywall), I know there a lot of people who displeased by its progress.
I'm not sure what can be learned from us on what works or doesn't work to keep a language alive.
But I am hoping there is something or at least our presence on social media can encourage the Belgians to keep this language alive.
I think the digital age we all live in these days presents another layer of complication to that. I gather in Belgium its still mostly a spoken thing, and when when its written
there is still a trend to write it the old (Feller like) way.
I've been interested in technology for a long time (I got into ham radio many years ago), so while I am not overly fond of some of the privacy aspects of today's technology,
things like Amazon's Alexa are some what interesting. I did encourage Wisconsinites who took a foreign language but haven't had much opportunity to use them, to switch their devices default language so they'd have more opportunity to talk to some one/thing, since its mostly mono-lingual here.
There are a couple interesting developments that caught my eye. I'm not sure how they could be applied to Walloon.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/alexa-learns-quebec-french-1.5078881
https://billingsgazette.com/news/state-and-regional/meet-michael-running-wolf-the-man-using-ai-to-reclaim-native-languages/article_def82ec7-a08a-5509-b4ef-d4df49899e6b.html
https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fbillingsgazette.com%2Fnews%2Fstate-and-regional%2Fmeet-michael-running-wolf-the-man-using-ai-to-reclaim-native-languages%2Farticle_def82ec7-a08a-5509-b4ef-d4df49899e6b.html
I think a lot of the underpinnings for these technolgies rely on a lot of audio samples and a mapping to standard written form. So you're on the right track. _________________ Li ci ki n' a k' on toû n' vike k' on djoû. |
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lucyin
Date d' arivêye: 2005-07-07 Messaedjes: 3758 Eplaeçmint: Sidi Smayil, Marok
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Date: lon 06 mås, 2023 11:27:50 Sudjet: |
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Steve Lampereur, li 27 di fevrî
Here is some context info related to Vandertie's letter that Mathieu asked about in case you care to document it, or were wondering yourself.
"Any idea what "Maarchan" could be in Vandertie's text ? It seems to be another place in Wisconsin. Possibly Marchienne or Marchin as these exist in Belgium?"
"Maarchan" refers the what is now Duvall, Wisconsin.
https://sites.rootsweb.com/~wipgs/PGS/TownofUnionCemStFrancesDePaulDuvall.htm
Before the church was built, mass was said in the Marchand (from Jauche) family's home. Later the communty got renamed after Joseph Duvall (of French Canadian origin), a promonent business man.
"A last one I found in the text "Rivarr dell loo". This sounds like "Rivière" (or Ruvêre/Riviére in Walloon, river) and "del leû" (of the wolf). Does anything like that exist? Vandertie says he comes from there"
This was a two way learning experience. It seems the Walloon speakers here were not aware that "del leû" means "of the wolf".
Al Vandertie lived in Algoma, which is by the bay/water. This community had a few prior names such as wolf river;
https://kewauneecountyhistory.blogspot.com/2013/05/wolf-river-ahnepee-ahnapee-algoma-naming.html _________________ Li ci ki n' a k' on toû n' vike k' on djoû. |
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Vos n' poloz nén enonder des noveas sudjets dins ç' forom ci Vos n' poloz nén responde a des sudjets k' i gn a dins ç' forom ci Vos n' poloz nén candjî vos messaedjes dins ç' forom ci Vos n' poloz nén disfacer vos messaedjes dins ç' forom ci Vos n' poloz nén vôter dins les ploncaedjes di ç' forom ci
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